The problem itself is a deceased equine that I'll not further bludgeon here, but the comments section of that story was interesting in its level of apologetics. "Hey, they're fixing it, quit complaining." In 30 years of owning laptop computers, having never once had a keyboard go bad including the coffee-spilled ones, a speck of dust renders my keyboard unusable and I'm just supposed to suck it up without complaint? (Hypothetically; I personally have a MBP, but not a newer one.)
I lied, I'll take one whack at this dead horse: with support costs continuing to escalate (in-store inventory, training, and employees aren't free), now will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?
One of, if not the biggest problem with many of those Apple fanatic is that Apple could do no wrong. And this is speaking as someone who like Apple but increasingly irritated by their action.
I have a lot of admiration for what Apple has done but in the post Jobsian Era they're focus seems to have shifted from elevating the personal computing experience to reducing over costs and it's disappointing to say the least.
You can reduce costs without sacrificing quality by identifying inefficiencies within your organization and streamlining them. Tim Cook made a name for himself by optimizing the logistical side of Apple. The cost reductions Apple has done have less impact on material finish and quality of the solution, and more impact reliability, repair-ability, and maintainability.
As a cost reduction technique, they rivet the keyboard to the upper chassis of the Macbook rather than the comparatively expensive process of tapping holes and using screws. This has no impact on product performance and quality, but if you happen to use an inferior keyboard then it makes repairs exceptionally difficult. As a result Apple is averse to performing repairs because what could have been an inexpensive keyboard swap now requires replacing the entire uni-body chassis which is an expensive machined part.
Another example is where the Macbook display FRC is soldered directly to the panel to avoid a connector that costs a penny in volume. This reduces manufacturing costs and part counts but introduces the risk that any issues with the FRC require the entire display to be replaced. That's exactly what happened because they made the FRC a few millimeters too short. Apple said that display failures were isolated and not a manufacturing defect however this year's model features an FRC that's a few millimeters longer.
These types of optimizations to the product might save a dollar or two in the BOM but they completely fail to take into consideration support requirements they introduce. Riveting a $ keyboard to a $$$$ machined aluminum chassis makes you adverse to even acknowledging an issue with the keyboard because you'll then have to replace the entire assembly. Forgoing a connector and soldering a $ FRC directly to the $$$$ display means that when the FRC fails due to stress from an engineering fault, you pretend it's an isolated issue to avoid having to replaced entire display assemblies on thousands of devices.
they aren't fixing it though, just kicking the can down the road. I have two coworkers that have had the replacement to the new model butterfly a few months back. Their keyboards are already failing again.
There is a good reason I stick with my mid-2014 macbook.
It's an interesting dilemma for the consumer when subsequent failure happens so soon after repair. If the product is under warranty, original or extended, I think the equivalent of automobile Lemon Law should apply: consumer is entitled to a permanent fix, manufacturer is entitled to three attempts to do so within 90 days; if it's still not working or subsequently fails, the consumer is entitled to a 100% refund.
I'm not aware of that being the case in any U.S. state. How does a consumer protect whatever rights they have? 50% off an external keyboard isn't good enough but people have work to do. Why bother getting yet another "fix" when it too likely fails in a few months? I'd want to make sure that if my warranty is about to expire that I've got documentation that Apple agrees the defect exists and that I'm entitled to a better permanent fix.
Consumer protection laws are important. This finders keepers nonsense makes people angry and they aren't just going to reduce their trust in Apple, their trust in the industry and society is diminished as well.
> I think the equivalent of automobile Lemon Law should apply: consumer is entitled to a permanent fix, manufacturer is entitled to three attempts to do so within 90 days; if it's still not working or subsequently fails, the consumer is entitled to a 100% refund.
This is indeed the law in many European countries, at least it is in Turkey, which sources its jurisprudence largely from there. I have successfully used this in TR against a Toshiba laptop (motherboard issue) circa 2004 as barely a high-school kid, much to the chagrin of the distributor's legal team lead. In the end they paid the retail amount in full, though it took a bit of time.
I have the new MBP 2018 with touchbar. I’ve gone to the store 4 times already, I am scheduled next week to return to the store for the same display issues as well as keyboard issues.
They’ve exchanged the MOBO, display, shell, and keyboard effectively giving me a new computer.
I purchased the extended Apple Care and will probably be left hanging when the 3 year mark comes around.
Definetly happier with my 2011 Macbook Air. Can’t recommend buying the new one.
>I purchased the extended Apple Care and will probably be left hanging when the 3 year mark comes around.
If they extend the program to include this model, you might get 4 years instead of 3. But yeah, the resale value for these machines is going to be terrible. A laptop that might be worth $1k fully-functioning is worth at most $300 if there’s a 60% chance that it will need at least one keyboard repair that costs $700. There’s the monetary cost, the hassle, and the adverse selection problem (that people who are selling their computers are more likely to be in the 60% that had problems, since if it’s working fine you wouldn’t be as likely to sell).
Ultimately these machines will probably end up being purchased for use as desktop machines, exclusively used with external keyboards.
It's hard not to suspect Apple is semi-officially throwing in the towel on the butterfly key switch with this repair policy. It's gone through several iterations across several different models and they clearly haven't been able to get it to a point of adequate reliability. So the answer to your question is probably "yes," to the degree that Apple is going to do an actual redesign that they think fixes the keyboard for realsies.
(Personally, I would say the answer is "just put the damn Magic Keyboard in the laptops and get over your pretty pretty selves about the extra 0.5mm," but I have an unfortunate suspicion that's way too simple.)
Is the magic keyboard substantially thinner than their old laptop keyboards? I would rather they just went back to those. They feel great.
Typing on the magic keyboards is only marginally better than typing on the butterfly keyboards on their laptops. We have one in the conference room at work and I hate whenever I have to use it...
Edit: To clarify, Apple's newer "magic" Keyboards aren't the same as their older desktop keyboards. They use a butterfly mechanism just like the laptops, and have barely more travel.
The Magic Keyboard has about half the travel of the old laptop keyboard. The butterfly switches have half the travel of the MK. (IIRC, it's something like 2 mm, 1mm, and 0.5mm travel respectively.) The MK does not use butterfly switches, it uses ultra-low-profile scissor switches.
Obviously, this is a YMMV thing. I personally just tolerate the butterfly switches, but prefer the Magic Keyboard to the older Apple laptop switches. This is not a preference on my part for low travel switches, either -- my favorite keyboards are actually mechanical ones. But (to me) the MK is the best scissor switch keyboard I've ever used, save for its dumb arrow key layout.
>> having never once had a keyboard go bad including the coffee-spilled ones,
It can happen. I spilled a sugary soda over my plastic Macbook almost 10y ago now, and fried the keyboard. It was easily fixed by ordering a refurb part from OWC and following the steps in their repair video.
The idea of DIY'ing something like that today on an Apple product seems very quaint.
In my country (Oz) we have a consumer law that allows for the return of a product "not fit for purpose". This keyboard issue is definitely that.
From a link in the article:
> The program also only serves to service affected keyboards at no charge for up to four years from their purchase date, but replacement keyboards are just as likely to be affected by durability issues.
I'm on the hunt for a new laptop, and would prefer macOS, but this keyboard issue shows how the mbp are simply "not fit for purpose".
The only laptop that is free of this problem is the mba 2017 edition (5th gen i5/ i7) at a heavily inflated price.
I’ve had to act on this consumer protection act (at least New Zealand’s equivalent which I think is very similar) when my MacBook trackpad stopped registering taps and Apple were very reluctant to follow their obligations as required by law.
It took a lot of handholding to even educate Apple about their legal obligations to consumers in New Zealand.
Eventually after threats of sending copies of letter to consumer protection office they agreed to pay for materials, but I had to pay for labour costs for the fix.
Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
> Eventually after threats of sending copies of letter to consumer protection office they agreed to pay for materials, but I had to pay for labour costs for the fix.
> Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
The Australian Ombudsman for Consumer Rights is super easy to deal with.
Fire off an email that shows you've contacted the right people, and that they haven't fixed the issue.
The ombudsman steps in and leans on the organisation, and you'll get a resolution within two weeks usually, four if they try and play hardball with the department... Which is a bad idea.
The next contact you'll get is the organisation apologising and trying to fix the issue, because if they don't do it to your satisfaction there are serious threats they have to deal with.
The org is required to pay for parts, labour and any required shipping. And you don't have to deal with the org directly - it's whoever you purchased from.
It's a painless process here, and means you don't have to deal with the stress of someone like Apple refusing to help you. At the first sign of "no we're not helping the way we should", fire an email and sit back and let the Ombudsman handle it for you.
> now will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?
Hopefully with the quick turnaround more people will bring theirs in and get the failure rate numbers up closer to reality vs. the "small number" of failures they seem to think there is.
I lied, I'll take one whack at this dead horse: with support costs continuing to escalate (in-store inventory, training, and employees aren't free), now will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?