1. The thing is reasonably cheap with "good enough" specs which makes it far easier to just buy it and accept that it may be just a toy in the worst case.
2. It's likely that the specs will be "good enough" for some time so the Hardware will not be terribly outdated the time the Software reaches a usable state.
3. Smartphone hardware and manufacturing matured a lot in general so it's likely easier to get sth. working with a limited budget. In comparison the Openmoko devices were reasonably advanced for their time but were also ridden by hardware bugs.
You don’t need your Raspberry PI to run your bank app, handle your payments or your bus-tickets. I’m not sure how I’d even purchase a non digital ticket for quite a few things in Denmark.
Don’t get me wrong, I really hope something like PinePhone sees enough adoption to get the apps I need a smartphone to run so I can break away from the two monopolies. I just don’t believe it will happen when Microsoft couldn’t do it.
Microsoft couldn't do it because everyone new (of the users) that even if they put in their effort to switch and wait for the ecosystem to grow, they will end up with just the same crap: another closed-source monopoly with it's own quirks. We won't have just two overlords, but instead 3 of the same. Wow such a difference...
Now an truly open system might make a difference. Not saying it will, it has it's own problems, but comparing it to Windows Phone is not really apples to apples.
The third party app platform was pretty slow and missing a lot of APIs relative to the others. The first party UI, which got praise from reviewers for being smooth, was written in a different language and framework.
In the first version, the default blank app from Visual Studio's "new project" wizard was slow to load. I think I measured it on the order of 500ms at the time. Not much room for third parties to add more stuff without being slow.
The only question I'd ask is : how many phones should they sell to break even ? Cos if they actually make some profit, that's just fine. Maybe they don't aim to go to mass market. And that's why MSFT may have failed : they tried to fight on Google's ground, head to head. Of course Pine can't do that. So if they just repeat what's been done for Raspberry, that's just great enough to have a living ecosystem.
I personaly just need SMS, voice and a browser. The rest, I can live without it (or program it :-)
You greatly overestimate the number of users who care about how closed or how open an ecosystem is.
If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source.
Microsoft had sunk billions into trying to get the ecosystem off the ground. What makes you think that "a truly open system" will get that ecosystem?
> If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source.
Most of this should be available on the PinePhone at launch (albeit not as nicely as on Android).
Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway)
YouTube - website again (youtube.com)
Skype - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (web.skype.com)
Uber - has a PWA that can be used for booking rides (m.uber.com)
Spotify - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (open.spotify.com)
My bank app has significantly better usability than the website because it can mostly cache credentials and support a short login procedure. Or use the fingerprint scanner.
Not really, among "normal" banks. This does seem to be the case with the new "challenger" banks like Monzo and Starling, which are all "mobile first" and are basically impossible to use if you don't have an Android/iPhone. But every regular bank in the UK has a website with online banking, often with more functionality than the apps, but maybe this is different in other countries - online banking in the UK has been commonplace since before mobile apps were really a thing.
Funnily enough, my last bank and two current ones, the app is increasingly a front for a mobile web version. With each new update I see more functionality moving to web.
I have an account with Bank of America and was not aware of this so thanks. That said, you can do pretty much everything else via the website. The opposite is also probably true, that there are some features on the website not available on the app (for example can you open a new CD in the app?).
The target audience isn't people who need to use Skype, Snapchat, or Uber. But I'm sure it will be possible to run some of those android apps through anbox. Spotify has a Linux client, and for YouTube there's the FreeTube client, which actually protects users' integrity.
I love them, thanks to it I have refocused on mobile Web, even though I tend to prefer native apps.
For traditional CRUD apps, PWAs are quite alright, and one avoids having to deal with Android's always changing "best practices", with a stagnant Android Java.
So how do people without phones participate in society? I don't use a google account on my phone, so that means no App Store. I'm trying to one day get rid of my google account too. It doesn't cause me many issues in the UK though I can't use things like Uber, and that's no loss to me.
The UK government "settled status" application procedure for EU nationals resident after Brexit was only available as an Android app. Otherwise you had to apply in person at a specific site.
There are a few things you cannot do. In some areas of Copenhagen you can't pay for parking without an app, I'm told (but I don't drive so I don't know for sure).
The biggest mobile-only thing is an app called MobilePay which is used mostly for person-to-person transfers, and a lot of people don't use cash at all anymore. I am starting to see classified ads that specify "MobilePay only", although I guess you could usually convince people to accept a bank transfer instead. A lot of shops also accept it, but there is a law that shops have to accept cash, but some places don't respect it. Very few shops don't accept credit cards, but these generally also like cash...
As for digitization in general, all communication with the municipality and state and things like your bank and insurance company is digital. You're required by law to have a bank account and to have it associated with your personal ID number (all Danish residents are tagged with their birthday + 4 digit code in the Central Person Register). This all goes via a website that works with all browsers, though, but I wouldn't be surprised if down the line some features started being smartphone/app store only.
"There are a few things you cannot do. In some areas of Copenhagen you can't pay for parking without an app, I'm told (but I don't drive so I don't know for sure)."
What are the permissions granted to these apps ?
Do they, as I fear, "require" full access to all contacts, all photos, location data ... ?
> So how do people without phones participate in society?
It's not super hard. Until ~3'ish years ago I did not have a smartphone here in DK.
Life is just so much easier with it.
I think they got rid of the 10x Bus ticket you would buy at a kiosk, so now you have to buy a single tickets with coins inside the bus. (depends on the city) Which means you need cash. DK society is very much cashless, I mostly see older people still using it.
Is the bus late or did you just miss it? Check the app to see the bus location.
Train Ticket? Now you have to print that out or buy it at the station. It's so easy to search, buy and show the ticket via the app.
Letter from most public authorities / government? There is an app for that. Or website.
Want to give your mate some money? -> MobilePay app. Now you have to get cash somewhere and convince him to take cash. Or go to a computer and transfer it. Which requires more information then just this number and takes longer.
Just buying a rejsekort (travel card - you put some money on it at some machine with your credit card and it pays automatically when you check out at the end of your trip. It also has a significant discount vs buying individual tickets) solve all the problems for buses, trains, metro, etc. You can also put your commuter card on it if you want, or you can receive a commuter card by text message which would even work with a dumb phone.
But it certainly helps a lot to have a smartphone, mainly for the government messages and the nem id app.
Sounds like Sweden. About 10 years ago I was very surprised to be able to pay for a bus journey using my (foreign) debit card. Now it's normal in the UK. And I have Swedish friends who have never seen the newly issued currency.
Crazy but it's the future. It's just a shame that it's gatekept by unaccountable duopolies such as Google...
Funny you should mention that, my Google account got somehow restricted yesterday due to Google Pay not liking my rooted phone. Now not only can I not pay with the phone, but I have to submit all my private information to a random Google web page, hope someone sees this, hope they agree it's correct, and hope that this was the problem in the first place (since all the app says is "this operation cannot be completed").
In summary, fuck Google. This is why I want cryptocurrency to succeed. I don't want corporations deciding how I spend my own money.
Imagine future cashless society with mobile-only payments. And a smart-car that needs a phone to open/start. And a smart-home with front-door unlocked with a phone. If you loose/break your phone - no problem, you can replace it with a new one, borrow one or use that old phone you keep in a drawer just in case. Not a huge deal. But if your account gets locked you have a problem. I'm afraid we as a society are giving too much control to a few corporations. It's not that of a problem yet of course
And that's the problem, that it's going to be insidiously gradual. These lockouts will mostly be seen as acts of God, things that happen to the less fortunate other people and not us. As long as they're kept rare enough, people won't bother solving them, like what happens with countless other things.
You don't need to wait! Visit China today. In all seriousness they are heading this way - you need a WeChat account to do or pay for just about anything, you will soon need face verification to sign in to any internet service, and fingerprint readers on doors are very much a thing.
According to the Lloyds website they (and other UK banks) are going to start sending an auth code to your phone as part of the web logon. Though I believe you can ask them to send you a security gadget as an alternative. It is a PITA though.
I'm in Canada and access Uber via their PWA. m.uber.com I think, I just did the "add to home screen" thing and it launches as a fullscreen web app. No need to have the app installed.
It has its own issues indeed, I don't deny that. But that used to be the same for Ubuntu when the Windows-only culture was at its highest. People who want this phone will use workarounds, custom apps, anbox or just web apps.
It wasn't that Microsoft couldn't do it, it's that they chose not to.
Through all of Windows phone 7, 8 and 8.1, the devices that were selling were low end devices -- things like the Lumia 520, especially in markets with more cost sensitivity. Because of software architecture differences, windows phone was often more responsive than android on bottom of the market phones, and that drove sales. But when it came time to release Windows Mobile 10, there were no low end phones.
Having to build out essentially three flavors of your app (one for 7, one for 8, and a 'universal' app for 10) isn't a great way to keep developers engaged either.
That's the point. You have a real computer, then you have a rpi to play with, do some hobby work around it, etc. If you're buying it as an analog to some flagship phone, don't.
I could see it being used for specific usage handheld devices. For example where I work, we sell train tickets and ship cheap Android phones with an app installed for tain conductors to scan the ticket barcodes. Something like this could be done with some "generic cheap Linux device with a touchscreen and mobile connection" locked down to a custom built app.
Not sure if that ends up being cost effective considering how cheap you can get low-end Android phones these days, and how easy it is to find Android developers, but I'm sure there are some applications along those lines that would be well suited for the equivalent of "a Raspberry Pi with a touchscreen and smaller form factor".
Mine was unusable until I installed Android, at which point I bought an Android phone a quarter of the thickness and mass, and better screen resolution (and likely better radios as well).
I too bought it because I thought I'd hack around and "maybe contribute" which quickly turn in "why am I wasting so much time on something that will probably never work".
For most people "quirks" are unacceptable in their mobile phones. Normally one can't afford to lose a call or to have the maps application crash when you're trying to get around.
Give FOSS phones the same media coverage of the iPhone, possibly including its ad induced reality distortion field, and they will sell like candies.
Seriously, once the software is ready, 30 seconds of any popular celebrity showing one would make it sell hundreds thousands in a week. Problem is the small manufacturers couldn't either pay for that level of advertising or satisfy the demand without turning themselves into what they're fighting against now (venture capital, investors etc. don't come free), so I welcome numbers as small as 13k or even much less if that means the product isn't polluted by the typical corporate mindset (close as much as possible to protect intellectual property, make it obsolete sooner to sell newer models, etc).
Oh and by having an unusual phone I can also play the elitist bastard with friends:*)
Interesting point. I have seen some friends happily using Windows phones but most of them were/are either Microsoft employees or working mostly with Windows software, so I guess they needed the deepest integration with the Windows ecosystem, which is understandable.
As for other users, it is possible that Windows phones had either some limitation compared to other platforms or they lacked the killer app that would make it appealing to other userbases.
Having never used one, I can only speculate that MS wanted to change too much too early by making an user interface very consistent with the one they introduced on PCs but hard to digest just like that one, and this could have brought users away both from the PC and mobile devices. I have always found in the past very hard to migrate non technical users from Windows to Linux, but the adoption of the new interfaces from Windows 8 onward made some people I know so furious that it became really easy to convince them to try Linux; in some cases it was them who asked me to install it. That would be unthinkable before Windows 8. In the mobile world I guess it was even harder to grow an userbase since the alternative was already mainstream.
They probably should have copied or mocked a mainstream mobile interface, that is, offer something an user from either Android or iOS would not find alien to use, then offer something more, say free Office apps, then after the userbase had grown start to build the rest.
> They probably should have copied or mocked a mainstream mobile interface, that is, offer something an user from either Android or iOS would not find alien to use, then offer something more, say free Office apps, then after the userbase had grown start to build the rest.
Why would the user base grow? The main problem Windows Phone had was the dearth of apps that users actually wanted. MS had to build their own YouTube client (and IIRC got into trouble with Google).
They've sunk billions into it: enticing developers, outright paying for the development of apps, creating apps on their own, spending huge amounts of money on advertisement (I remember at one point when half of popular TV shows featured Windows Phones). The result?
It did sell ~100 million phones in about 5 years and then discontinued the entire enterprise.
So, back to the original claim:
> Give FOSS phones the same media coverage of the iPhone, possibly including its ad induced reality distortion field, and they will sell like candies.
Why would it work for a FOSS phone when it didn't for MS?
Because the number of potential developers on this platform is at least an order of magnitude bigger than all Windows Mobile developers on this planet. Probably more. Developers also that happen to be the first users as well, an aspect very different from the one Windows Mobile had to struggle into.
If ths thing turns out as interesting as it promises there would be hundreds thousands of people willing to work on various tasks to bring it on par with other platforms. That day we'd have to find a benevolent dictator, sort of a mobile version of Linus Torvalds, which would direct them various teams right to the spot, since it's very likely that groups being working on say accounting software (just to name the most boring thing to me if I was in their shoes) would proceed at 1/4 speed compared to those working on say video acceleration or networking tools.
It will start as a community toy, then one day, possibly after the 2nd or 3rd model, normal phones users will start to notice that little thing that doesn't get advertising, doesn't ask for DNA when installing apps, doesn't spy what the user says, writes, buys or where he/she goes and when, consumes a fraction of their metered data plan since great part of it (ads/junk/telemetry) has been blocked or never requested/created by design, offers equivalent non spying apps etc, all at the cost of avoiding the usual social media apps (I assume FB/TW will never allow a port of their clients there, especially if sandboxed). For some people losing FB/TW or GMaps could be too much, but others wouldn't care. It will slowly but steadily gain a good mostly technical userbase. If I had a date to be concerned about, it will be the day its growing userbase size could raise a flag in some offices, so that the following day the folks that made it possible will get a huge offer to sell the entire operation. That eventuality would deem the project to become a copy of any other platform out there. There's hardware production involved; forking the blueprints wouldn't be enough.
> Because the number of potential developers on this platform is at least an order of magnitude bigger than all Windows Mobile developers on this planet.
Why? Where do these potential devs suddenly come from? Just fro the fact it's a FOSS phone? Looking at how Linux has struggled for years (and is still struggling) to get decent software, your premise seems broken.
> If ths thing turns out as interesting as it promises there would be hundreds thousands of people willing to work on various tasks to bring it on par with other platforms.
Why would they? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of such people? Especially considering that the vast majority of software is commercial software that needs users.
Users do not flock to something just because developers do.
> It will start as a community toy, then one day, possibly after the 2nd or 3rd model
And then you list dozens of things each of which has a very low probability of happening. And then those improbabilities compound.
> For some people losing FB/TW or GMaps could be too much, but others wouldn't care. It will slowly but steadily gain a good mostly technical userbase.
You underestimate the numbers in this "mostly technical userbase". It's not the first phone to cater to a "mostly technical userbase". None of these phones survived past a first iteration. Somehow, no thought is given to why these projects failed. But the new one will surely become popular, will have multiple iterations and a good user base.
Yeah, sure.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
It was working, but Microsoft didn't have the patience to wait, and wasn't willing to be number 3 for a long time. If Microsoft had continued the project they could have continued to be a distant third place making enough money to keep the lights on in that division - but it would never be insanely profitable and they were not willing to settle for that.
The market had already spoken by the time MS discontinued the project. Windows Phone reached a peak of about 3.5% of users and then started declining, quite rapidly.
Given that ~100% of money was going to the iOS and Android ecosystem, MS had no chance to retain even a few percent of the market: developers would not be interested in developing software for an obscure system that brings in no money, users would not be interested in a phone with little to no software.
Netscape was a commercial failure but Mozilla is still around. Similarly Blender only went open-source after a crowdfunding campaign.
CyanogenMod is another interesting example, mostly open source and mostly successful until it started trying to commercialize the code.
I think the community ends up being a big part of it. It's not like every PinePhone shipped is going to result in another developer for the OS, but there is some critical mass point where the software goes from broken to usable and it seems PinePhone might be getting there.
It's becoming easier and easier to develop new products in this space. Hell, there are a few "open source" phone projects out there that are just white label products imported from China.
The first Neo phone was released a year before the first Android smartphone even hit the market. It's a bit unfair to compare these new projects with something like OpenMoko.
