I never understood the fascination with these gurus. They repackage old ideas and dress them up a bit before using them to lure in weak-willed and gullible devotees. Most, and Ram Dass was no exception, were incredibly flawed people, albeit intelligent and charismatic, with clear psychogical issues.
Dass bounced around between gurus that exploited women and men before returning to the US to do much the same. That, the drugs, and the lies over the years just makes whatever he says unpalatable.
but as someone who lives in a culture (India) overrun by "gurus" of all shapes and forms, spouting Roscharchian mumbo jumbo packaged as "ancient wisdom", I largely agree with and sympathize with your viewpoint.
As an Indian who isn't in India at the moment, I empathise with you. I just googled for "Guru arrested" [0] and there seems to be a ton of results for the search term. It is really unfortunate that a lot of people are abusing their position as "Gurus" to cater to their base needs.
Why go to gurus to listen to ideas or ideology, that you can read in books and practice at your home?
Why go to college when you can learn anything from books or by working on it (as profession or hobby)?
Why go to tax planner when you can file taxes on your own?
In World, where information is asymmetric, (and we lack time to acquire information or expertise) we need help. They are our references/guides, with assumption and hope of good faith (No fiduciary agreement)
This is classic Principal Agent Problem.
Does Principal has flaws? Yes.
Do they always work in good faith? No.
Simply put, What to do with information/guidance one receive is their prerogative and life/lifestyle of these people is theirs.
Should we appreciate ideas more than the people behind it? Yes.
Will we ever do it? No.
I know you want to "drill down" but your choice of comparisons is not apt.
Why do people go to Tarot card readers? It is almost certainly possible to study as much about Western esotericism and ritualistic practices as it is to study about ancient Indian religions. You have the same asymmetry of knowledge (Tarot card reader took the time to acquire expertise which you don't have time to). You have the same person/idea division (maybe your Tarot card reader is a drunkard and a philanderer but he can sure read those cards).
I think we have some weird prejudice when it comes to Indian spirituality. For some reason we bend over backwards to give it the benefit of the doubt that we deny to other traditions. You want to compare Indian Gurus to college professors and tax planners. The truth is they are closer to psychics and spirit mediums.
I feel you completely missed my argument here, which ended with,
Does Principal has flaws? Yes.
Do they always work in good faith? No.
Simply put, What to do with information/guidance one receive is their prerogative and life/lifestyle of these people is theirs.
Should we appreciate ideas more than the people behind it? Yes. Will we ever do it? No.
———
One does not have to ”follow” these gurus, be it Indian or otherwise. But I also believe, one should have open mind to listen to all ideas. Eventually, What one doss with these ideas is one’s choice. It has nothing to do with bending over backwards.
> one should have open mind to listen to all ideas
Maybe you missed my argument then? Why not keep an open mind about Tarot, astrology and the healing power of crystals? At least in the West, these ideas are ridiculed outright and the ideas behind them mocked by the association. Yet the "love is the answer" surface of most Guru philosophy has almost the exact same philosophical centre as the esoteric roots of those practices. For some reason while most feel no compulsion to defend western esotericism they do insist people have an open mind about Indian spiritual ideas.
To be clear - I have no care at all what someone wants to study. My point is that there is a drastic difference in how we treat these ideas within popular culture. Spiritual teachers that peddle Indian ideas are treated significantly differently than spiritual teachers that peddle western ideas. As far as I am aware there is no basis for this. With your attempt to compare Indian spiritual teachers to accountants and professors you just provided an opportunity to highlight this difference. I know of no one who would allow such a comparison for a Tarot card reader.
What one study, listens or believe is their choice, regardless of the medium through which one acquire that learnings (be it a professor or guru. By your argument all professor and accounts are almost always correct because?)
Also, just because something is science does not make people believe it (for the most part of our civilization earth was flat and for many global warning is hoax) Similarly, just because something is NOT science does not make people NOT believe it too.(the whole world of placebo is not science that has shown to work for many)
I don't know about Eastern vs Western religions/"spiritual paths" but I find them both to be a waste of time. Any type of "revealed knowledge" whatever the source should be treated with suspicion if not disdain.
You're not really drilling down. All these pseudo-spiritual "gurus" lay the entire basis of their thinking out using mystical thinking to explain things rather than anything intellectual. I'd rather follow a random number generator with where to go next with my life experiences than these types of frauds.
You’d be surprised to hear many of these spiritual gurus. Their ideas are much more logical (if not intellectual) than an average priest (of any religion) whose learning/ideas are almost always about religion. Again, I’m not making the case for or against anyone here.
Like I said in my previous comment, One does not have to ”follow” these gurus, be it Indian or otherwise. But I also believe, one should have open mind to listen to all ideas. Eventually, What one doss with these ideas is one’s choice.
> Dass bounced around between gurus that exploited women and men before returning to the US to do much the same.
The book "Saints and Psychopaths" talks about a case where Ram Dass was following an explotative guru in the US in the late 70s. I thought it was interesting that he was still doing that then, and also that the story isn't so well known.
But what do you mean by "the lies over the years"? He never struck me as a liar.
Perhaps lies is not the best word in this case. Is there a word in English for someone that gives advice knowing that they themselves are not qualified to do so? Like if I were to confidently give you medical advice despite not being a doctor. Putting on a façade?
The messengers are usually flawed, but the message is good. Same with so many other things which can positively enhance our perspective: comedy, art, music. The messengers are one of us, and while they’ve often glimpsed a possibility most of us haven’t seen, they’re still bound by the same limitations of humanity the rest of us experience. Their message can be guideposts toward a better existence, even if their examples fall short. Finger pointing at the moon, and all that.
I’m a fan of Ram Dass - but not “fascinated”. To me he was like a spiritual comedian sharing the absurdity of this life. I find it’s helpful to get perspectives from far out people - perhaps so I don’t have to venture so far out myself. By no means does he get a pass for any transgressions.
If I had a house in Maui along with all the academic and financial success he's had (in no small part as a consequence of being born into money), I too would love everyone and consider all of my actions "an offering to God"
"They repackage old ideas" Old in the East, new to the West. I'm sure Ram Dass would agree that he was a flawed person, except possibly the allegation that he lied. What kind of lies are you talking about? If you want to call students "gullible devotees" ok. You say "exploited women and men" to mean he had sex? You think he should have been celibate? You're looking at the finger, not at what the finger is pointing to.
Let's say you get sick. So you get in your car and drive to what Google maps says is the nearest hospital. You arrive, and people dressed as nurses and doctors are bustling about. They check you in, perform some tests, give you some medicine, and you pay before you leave. The medicine sort of works you think, and with time you get better.
A week later you find out that the hospital was actually run by people that had little formal training as doctors. Some took a few classes on Coursera or first aid training, but none really devoted themselves to the profession beyond a cursory level. But they seemed so professional you think, but then again without medical knowledge how would you know? On top of that you find they've been using their position to influence medical opinions behind the hospital, gain fame, and earn large sums of money from desperate people looking to be healed. Sure, they inadvertently cure some people, and others just got better due to time.
To me this is like Ram Dass and so many other gurus. Their lies are layered under the façade they present and under the ideas they explain, most often poorly and without context. They may inadvertently help people, but just as much they are preying on those desperate for answers and help. They are unqualified scam artists who know just enough to be dangerous. The lie is embodied in who they purport to be and in the help they try to provide.
Can you give an example for one such lie coming from Ram Dass? I'm not saying there isn't one because I'm not familiar with his work but I'm familiar with another "flawed" guru, Alan Watts. And while you may not enjoy his ideas or think he is correct it would be very hard to call him a liar because what he does is simply take reality and give you another angle to look at it from.
These spiritual gurus are like a distinct type of art. Not everyone is partial to it but certain segments of the population are more likely to find something in it that moves them. You may call these people fools but it's not much different then holders of one political viewpoint viewing the holders of the opposing one as fools. These are just perspectives, there are no absolute right and wrongs here (leaving aside some extremes), because the human experience cannot be narrowed down to science.
Can you point out where the people in my hospital example lied? If they never claimed to be doctors, but dressed up and acted as them, is it a lie? Lies come in many forms, some are explicit and others less so.
I don't see them as fools, but as charismatic and intelligent people who have found a way to garner adoration, fame and other benefits by exploiting psychologically weak and vulnerable people. Whether they do so knowingly or not varies from guru to guru. I think many of them do start off with good intentions but quickly find themselves buying into the mystique others have built up around them. They are often as weak as their devotees. Dass falls into this camp in my mind. Is it wrong, no, but I feel it's important to point out.
Philosophies & religions (hell, ideas in general) have always been iterative in this way. They all have a genealogy that goes back in time further than is commonly assumed.
Talk is cheap. Talk that makes broad, vague accusations is cheap. Talk that makes accusations of the dead is cheap. Talk that makes accusations without backing them up with evidence is cheap.
What has Ram Dass taught that was anything more than feel good self-help level material put into a palatable form fit for those wanting to hear soothing words?
Sure, he was intelligent, had a PhD, and was a likeable guy. He also spent much of his early years doing drugs (LSD experiments) and bouncing around ashrams in India with less than reputable gurus.
The guy was quoted as saying Jerry Garcia was a Bodhisattva, if that says anything about his state of mind.
He was, like most gurus, exceedingly arrogant at times. 'It is useful here to remember that your guru, even though you may not have met him in his manifest form knows everything about you, everything.' Who says stuff like that?
Dass was no more put together than anyone else, especially considering how he boucned around with ideas, even becoming a devout evangelical Christian at one point. The guy was put on a pedestal by people and he made the best of it.
There is tons of stuff that weighs against the guy, but I'm on mobile and out and don't remember much. I don't consider him to be wholly malicious in his actions like many purported 'gurus,' but he is still a scam artist for letting others follow him while reaping the benefits.
There would be no 60's generation w/o Ram Dass and Tim Leary. We would have continued the 1950's mind set. As they say, "those 2 just closed the door shut on the '50s, and blew our minds with what came next."
Sounds like you are missing that part. I've attended Ram Dass lecture, he just blew us all away. He was that far out. He got it. He really did. Life, Death and what comes next. Just got it. Like no one else. He just did.
HIGHLY suggest watch this one.
Dying To Know - Ram Dass & Timothy Leary - Documentary
Ok, but please don't respond to one indignant comment with another. We're trying to avoid that here, and a thread about Ram Dass is a great place to work on it.
Dass bounced around between gurus that exploited women and men before returning to the US to do much the same. That, the drugs, and the lies over the years just makes whatever he says unpalatable.